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Re: Potential Investor
Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 7:00 pm
by Reg
John Very Little wrote:Reg wrote:Creditors could of course write off the money they're owed couldn't they?
The debt doesn't necessarily have to be repaid, does it?
If PC is buying the club (which would include the ground) then the mortgage, debentures and loan to St Andrews Engineering would have to be paid as these have charges secured against the ground.
Not all of the debentures may want their cash back however there is another factor to bear in mind, the loan with St Andrews is subject to interest but no interest has been claimed on this loan. However the interest could be added at any time and if someone like PC is coming in with a cash bid then I'd guess the unclaimed interest would also be added on?
With regard to the 245K directors loans somehow I don't think the directors will just write them off.
The club has 500K debts and PC's bid is only 250K - therefore it's dead in the water as it won't cover all the debts.
Why can't some people understand this?
Tiddler, I absolutely understand.
However, if any potential buyer has to clear all debts to acquire the club, he or she would be paying significantly over the odds.
Say the club does have £500k debts and then the ground is valued at £600k. That's £1.1m. Nobody right thinking businessman would pay that to take the club over.
Unless some compromise is made, the club will remain under the control of the Keen's as long as they like. Who really wants that? My guess would be nobody, not even Brian and Tony.
Re: Potential Investor
Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 7:03 pm
by Kieran
John Very Little wrote:
The club has 500K debts and PC's bid is only 250K - therefore it's dead in the water as it won't cover all the debts.
Why can't some people understand this?
Why so confrontational Tidds?
Not sure if you're deliberately choosing to ignore key information or not but it's been quite clearly stated that no formal offer has been made and this figure of £250k is far far from set in stone. That would suggest that any proposed takeover is certainly not "dead in the water".
Re: Potential Investor
Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 7:04 pm
by John Very Little
blue nige wrote:John you are right but if the directors made unsecured loans without the members knowledge( no matter that there was good intent)then firstly was this legitimate and if not I as a member will not(if possible)let this situation stop the club progressing!
There isn't anything in the constitution that says directors cannot loan money to the club, however they aren't allowed to make any profit from the loans.
Re: Potential Investor
Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 7:09 pm
by John Very Little
Reg wrote:John Very Little wrote:
If PC is buying the club (which would include the ground) then the mortgage, debentures and loan to St Andrews Engineering would have to be paid as these have charges secured against the ground.
Not all of the debentures may want their cash back however there is another factor to bear in mind, the loan with St Andrews is subject to interest but no interest has been claimed on this loan. However the interest could be added at any time and if someone like PC is coming in with a cash bid then I'd guess the unclaimed interest would also be added on?
With regard to the 245K directors loans somehow I don't think the directors will just write them off.
The club has 500K debts and PC's bid is only 250K - therefore it's dead in the water as it won't cover all the debts.
Why can't some people understand this?
Tiddler, I absolutely understand.
However, if any potential buyer has to clear all debts to acquire the club, he or she would be paying significantly over the odds.
Say the club does have £500k debts and then the ground is valued at £600k. That's £1.1m. Nobody right thinking businessman would pay that to take the club over.
You don't understand!!!
If PC were to make a successful bid of 600K for the ground then 500K would go to pay off the debts and the other 100K would be spent as the members decided.
Re: Potential Investor
Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 7:14 pm
by John Very Little
Kieran wrote:John Very Little wrote:
The club has 500K debts and PC's bid is only 250K - therefore it's dead in the water as it won't cover all the debts.
Why can't some people understand this?
Why so confrontational Tidds?
Not sure if you're deliberately choosing to ignore key information or not but it's been quite clearly stated that no formal offer has been made and this figure of £250k is far far from set in stone. That would suggest that any proposed takeover is certainly not "dead in the water".
Some clearly people don't understand that the bid that is made by PC must be at least what the total of the debts are, this is what I was getting at as some have been saying let him have the ground for 250K and just completely ignore all the debts, that can't happen.
Re: Potential Investor
Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 7:20 pm
by DaveP
He wouldn't be buying the debts without the assets and so he's probably suggesting a figure that nets one against the other.
Are the debts you refer to stated net of assets or just the debts alone?
Re: Potential Investor
Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 7:22 pm
by Reg
Calm down Tidds!
Maybe I did misunderstand the numbers involved but my original assertion remains valid.
The sticking point is the directors loans.
The directors have got themselves into a financial black hole because of their own ineptitude.
The problem for the club is that these loans are now likely to hinder the club from moving forward under new management.
If I was in Casson's shoes, no way would I want to bail these people out.
What happens if a further independent valuation of the ground doesn't come to an amount that conveniently covers all these debts?
Re: Potential Investor
Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 7:26 pm
by blue nige
On page 9 of this thread"spongebob" says the ground CANNOT be bought any potential investor can only pay off the debt and invest in the club so are we all getting confused ?please somebody HELPwhat is the current position!
Re: Potential Investor
Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 7:29 pm
by supporter for life
A question to Messrs Keen; if agreement can't be reached re: ground evaluation and the offer is either withdrawn or rejected, are they willing to continue to finance the club when it inevitably struggles for cash thus increasing their unsecured loans to AFC or will they let the club sink into oblivion? If the club folded they would be unlikely to recover the said loans that are unsecured as the ground would not be worth £600k. Another thing, in these times of austerity how can the value of the ground/club increase year on year as stated in the last AGM's accounts?
Re: Potential Investor
Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 8:10 pm
by behind the goals
Not all Debentures may want their money back, being a Debenture myself noboby has asked me one way or another
Re: Potential Investor
Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 8:14 pm
by Three Lie Ins
Say the club does have £500k debts and then the ground is valued at £600k. That's £1.1m. Nobody right thinking businessman would pay that to take the club over.
Unless some compromise is made, the club will remain under the control of the Keen's as long as they like. Who really wants that? My guess would be nobody, not even Brian and Tony.
That's right no one would pay £1.1M, but if the ground is worth £600K and there are debts of £500K, they may pay £100K which would be the net worth.
Re: Potential Investor
Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 8:19 pm
by Reg
Three Lie Ins wrote: Say the club does have £500k debts and then the ground is valued at £600k. That's £1.1m. Nobody right thinking businessman would pay that to take the club over.
Unless some compromise is made, the club will remain under the control of the Keen's as long as they like. Who really wants that? My guess would be nobody, not even Brian and Tony.
That's right no one would pay £1.1M, but if the ground is worth £600K and there are debts of £500K, they may pay £100K which would be the net worth.
Thank you for helping me understand instead of getting cross with me like the closet shill.
Re: Potential Investor
Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 8:34 pm
by Three Lie Ins
Reg wrote:Three Lie Ins wrote:
That's right no one would pay £1.1M, but if the ground is worth £600K and there are debts of £500K, they may pay £100K which would be the net worth.
Thank you for helping me understand instead of getting cross with me like the closet shill.
Happy to oblige Reg.
The questions that remain unanswered are
(1) What is the fair and true value of the ground?
(2) What is the fair and true value of outstanding liabilities (i.e. debts)?
If those questions can be answered to the satisfaction of both parties, and its all verified by due diligence, then there is a prospect of a deal being struck.
Re: Potential Investor
Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 8:36 pm
by DaveC
behind the goals wrote:Not all Debentures may want their money back, being a Debenture myself noboby has asked me one way or another
I was contacted some time ago and asked if I was willing to not ask for my debenture back. I replied I never intended to get the money back.
Re: Re: Potential Investor
Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 8:39 pm
by Uncle Peter
blue nige wrote:Without trying to point score peter you say the ground was valued at 600k,correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't this valuation disputed when we were bidding for the new health centre?
I'm not sure, as that was before my time.
The 600K was an independant valuation carried out by an outside company.
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