Unfair Relegation?

Suffolk Blue · Post by **Suffolk Blue** » Fri May 07, 2021 5:30 pm

This should really have been posted on the "Decisions being Made" thread.

As far as breaching the spirit if not the rules of the Football Pyramid is concerned there has never been any doubt my mind that the process and the decision by the NL to avoid promotion from its "elite" feeder leagues to the NL was in blatant violation of both their rules and of everything that was said on their behalf by the NL and the FA when the season was curtailed in 2020. The issue of whether the season has been completed in that respect is utterly irrelevant (legally). They make their rules up as they go along and I long for the day when a really good lawyer with significant financial backing is allowed to drive a dagger through the heart of what are essentially a bunch of incompetent jobsworths. Not this season though.

As Adam has pointed out, the time to challenge this was when the decision to null and void NLN/NLS was made, not when the season had virtually ended. Further the challenge should have come from the EFL collectively and not the clubs affected by relegation. As soon as this did not happen it became pretty clear to me at least that an unwritten "agreement" had effectively taken place between the FA, the EFL and the NL not to challenge the legitimacy of the decision to promote but not relegate from the NL. You can either be of the opinion that the decision was taken in the best interests of the pyramid or that in fact that this was a convenient stitch up by a bunch of self serving petty administrators.

So for those reasons, I'd rate the chances of this challenge succeeding as very unlikely to non-existent, irrespective of its moral or legal merits. Do not think however for one moment that those in power at the EFL have not recognised the significance or potential relevance of the decision. Legitimate or not the decisions taken by the NL are precedent setting. So were circumstances to arise in the future where the EFL itself felt strongly enough to play the same card the NL would have a much weaker case for challenging it.

Suffolk Blue · Post by **Suffolk Blue** » Fri May 07, 2021 5:53 pm

No one ever gets off scott free Elaine. There's always a price to pay even if that might be some way down the line. The NL is institutionally incompetent. The only way they are ever going to get any decision they make agreed is by the consent of those that are far more powerful than they are. I suspect that this decision in the long run will not be good one way or another for the prospects of teams looking to get back into the EFL.

I'm so glad we are still an EFL club.

April1972 · Post by **April1972** » Fri May 07, 2021 6:08 pm

Suffolk Blue wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 5:53 pm No one ever gets off scott free Elaine. There's always a price to pay even if that might be some way down the line. The NL is institutionally incompetent. The only way they are ever going to get any decision they make agreed is by the consent of those that are far more powerful than they are. I suspect that this decision in the long run will not be good one way or another for the prospects of teams looking to get back into the EFL.

I'm so glad we are still an EFL club.

So very true. The importance of staying in the League this season was relevant at so many levels. Unless the NL sort out their multitude of problems then there quite well could come a time when the EFL says sorry but we can no longer accept promotion from your league as things stand.

HenneysKnee · Post by **HenneysKnee** » Fri May 07, 2021 8:35 pm

They’ve got a valid argument in a way, they should have made that argument as soon as the national league announced there was to be no relegation not now.

whitty1969 · Post by **whitty1969** » Fri May 07, 2021 8:45 pm

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/57022942

behind the goals · Post by **behind the goals** » Fri May 07, 2021 10:21 pm

If this appeal is won then what a complete waste of time this season will have being.

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » Fri May 07, 2021 10:37 pm

So if this succeeded and there was no relegation from league two, would the relegated teams from league one then claim that they should not be relegated to a league that didnt have relegation? - and so on...Sheffield United could be saved yet!!

Suffolk Blue · Post by **Suffolk Blue** » Sat May 08, 2021 12:42 am

I dont think the EFL would be breaching any legal requirements by denying promotion from the NL as a reciprocal measure - which it almost certainly wont.

It should be remembered that the NL and EFL are not just different steps or divisions but entirely different associations. There is no automatic or legal right of entry from one to the other. Hence why each has an annual AGM. Within the EFL this is used to accept the nominated teams from the NL. But the EFL is a members only club. Its attitude to promotion and relegation is outlined within its articles of association. But none of these are immutable. And any of them can be changed by a vote of its members (AGM/EGM). This is why so few threats of legal action ever succeed.

So what the EFL could have done once the decision to void relegation from the NL was made is to publicly state its concern and announce that it was engaging with its members to consider whether it should reciprocate in kind. It did not and in fact said nothing. If challenged it might have used as a defense that until last week the FA had not actually ratified the decision made by the NL but that, whilst true, would be a convenience. In fact since the decision was made everybody has been carefully covering their own backs - which is what these bodies do whenever they are confronted with a difficult decision. It is probably also true that the EFL could not know for certain at that time whether any of its member clubs were going to go pop, so it probably needed to preserve the prospect of promotion if only for that reason.

The issue seems to have been spiced up a bit recently by the the short-lived advent of the ESL, the demise of which was heavily predicated on the betrayal of the principles of promotion and relegation , with the pyramid being shoe-horned in to the debate (it has to be said by a group of left out Premier League wannabes who have previously done very little to support the pyramids continued operation). Perhaps that why Southend and Grimsby think that this appeal might have mileage. But it is almost certainly too late and the EFL almost certainly know this. Hence why they'll say very little, just in case this challenge gains some traction and will simply give the nod to the two NL teams on June 10th.

As noted above however the mess that the NL is now in will have not gone unnoticed and the precedent of using "temporary" issues to make one-off decisions regarding promotion and relegation has been set. I'd not be surprised to see the same card being used by the EFL in the future in circumstances more of its choosing. And as for three up or four up from the NL I think that prospect has regressed several years.

Suffolk Blue · Post by **Suffolk Blue** » Sun May 09, 2021 11:19 pm

https://www.grimsbytelegraph.co.uk/spor ... on-5392649

Seems like Grimsby might have been preparing for this for a few weeks. I think the process to be followed will be firstly for the EFL to accept that to hear the appeal at its AGM is legitimate and then to hear it at the AGM on the 10th June. I'd be surprised if they did not allow the appeal to be heard, but gobsmacked if they actually upheld it.

Interestingly we are now being presented with a form of words to describe the situation where it is clearly being stated (correctly) that the National League "changed its rules" to enable it to arrive at a place where it could allow itself to avoid relegation whilst at the same time continuing to support promotion. The phrasing of this description is probably significant. Even if as expected, the EFL choose not to endorse the appeal, acceptance of these words legitimises the principle of an Association being able to suspend (though not end) relegation or promotion. So even if the EFL membership rejects the appeal it can still avail itself of the precedent being set. Essentially it presents the EFL with a "get out of jail" card which its own members could invoke at some point in the future. Any notion that rejection of the appeal is some form of victory for sense, fairness or the NL would therefore be purely illusory.

Regarding the position between the EFL and the Premiership it should be remembered that (at least according to the EFL) the rules on promotion and relegation are contractually safeguarded so the same situation should not occur. However, I'm not sure even that is 100% water-tight. When you play with the rules in this way , you potentially play with fire.

RedWeb · Post by **RedWeb** » Mon May 10, 2021 9:14 am

Southend and Grimsby deserve to get relegated. 46 games is more than enough time to avoid such a fate. However, it's hard to disagree that the NL has been a farce this season. No relegation/promotion from NLN or NLS, one team (Dover) who stopped playing in January and several others who haven't tried a leg for months. Wealdstone for one seem to have given up completely. One minute they were looking at promotion play-offs, now they are regularly 4 down at half-time - which to me suggests furloughed players and youngsters/amateurs put in their place. The only teams really bothering are the ones who can make the top 7. The rest have had the flip-flops on for months.

Suffolk Blue · Post by **Suffolk Blue** » Mon May 10, 2021 10:46 am

Yes RW thats spot on. Your comments highlight the true threat to the NL which is not really about a decision that it took and the consequences for a couple of teams in the EFL.

Its really to do with the integrity of the NL and its fitness for purpose as a key element of the pyramid and the ability of its members to act in a cohesive integrated fashion. Some of its teams jumping through hoops to earn their "right" to promotion; some of their teams paying lip service to fixtures but not much else; the majority of their members not playing at all. Oh and their Managing Board facing a vote of no confidence which of course the clubs with greatest influence will ensure does not succeed. Can you imagine the response of the Premiership to such a situation in the EFL?

The NL is like a fragile object with a crack now running down the middle of it. One of the reasons I dont think the EFL would uphold the Grimsby/Southend appeal is that such a decision could well accelerate a complete failure of the elite non-league football structure and it wont want to do that. Unfortunately the NL is quite capable of achieving that for itself. At which point of course the EFL now has the precedent being set by the NL to seal itself off and temporarily at least prevent relegation/promotion to/from it.

RedWeb · Post by **RedWeb** » Mon May 10, 2021 11:59 am

To be clear, this is nothing like the NL Barrow came out of. We played 37 games without issues or Covid (Stockport had played 39). Relegation/Promotion to/from the NLN and NLS was in play. However, this season is a joke. It's clear only around 10 teams are bothering. No threat of relegation etc. Still can't quite see how Dover can just stop and not expect relegation. At the very least they should expect to start next season on -12/-15 or thereabouts.

Suffolk Blue · Post by **Suffolk Blue** » Mon May 10, 2021 12:50 pm

Yes. Actually the PPG rule was brought in at least partially at the behest of the FA specifically to avoid the voiding outcome that it has now ratified for the NL this season. Of course the FAs concern last season was preventing the Premiership/EFL going down this route. But now it stands exposed as the ultimate hypocrite. It probably therefore has the same view of the NL as the rest of us.

The situation with Dover is the most ridiculous of all. Whether you sympathise or not with what Dover did, what they did perpetuate was an act of total non-compliance with what was required of them under the rules of their association. The punishment for that can really only be expulsion from the NL. However this was of course not possible since relegation/promotion had been already abandoned below NL level. So they slapped a big fine them - which they cant pay - and gave them a 12 point points deduction for next season - which they are contesting.

If Dover are as skint as they say, then its probable that - if they compete at all next season - it will be with a vastly weakened squad (they released 15 of their players who had been furloughed this week). Add to that the fact that their owner has developed a simmering hatred for the League they will compete in and you can see these problems are not likely to disappear. And we haven't even touched on the NLN/NLS members which is really where the outrage is primarily coming from.

behind the goals · Post by **behind the goals** » Sat May 15, 2021 7:22 pm

Grimsby Town say they won`t be challenging their relegation from league 2.

RedWeb · Post by **RedWeb** » Sat May 15, 2021 7:32 pm

behind the goals wrote: ↑Sat May 15, 2021 7:22 pm Grimsby Town say they won`t be challenging their relegation from league 2.

Probably realised it was a waste of time. Bit like the ESL teams i.e. bow out while you can still save some face.

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